Curse

Uzul · Feb 17, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

a very good friend of mine got scammed when he wanted to buy the bulwark. (typical item swap to clean shadow shield after 4-5 aborted sessions)

well, i myself stop trading in total when a person starts to close and open trade more than 3 times - and i always check what i accept on (viva mouse.hover functions).

anyhow, back to the story - so that guy went off with a laugh, but my friend had screenshots which we sent to the scammer's guildleader (who was very displeased) and yesterday i started whispering that particular person: giving him a chance to even out a some karma -- of course he denied that he would have ever scammed anyone... took 5 minutes, then i gave him a link with the uploaded screen... long story short, after 2 hours i get a whisper from my friend - he got his money back. (and my friend got to know 2 more of his victims that got their gold back as well) - lucky but rare ending there...

moral? scamming is not nice, and its certainly not honest... people who scam others online will most likely do it in RL as well - and vice versa; there is no protection against idiots... aura of intelligence won't work cause they can't understand its concept. (/endshortsarcasticoutburst)

one thing to do: check your trades, report scammers to anet and especially to their guild leader / officers -- mostly they don't fear the wrath of anet, but they are just human beeings in social structures - and if those structures are about to collapse they will be hurt, at least a little bit...

~Aya Starshine, Guardian of Tyria~

ps: there are always 2 people involved in a scam, and after the 2nd time beeing scammed ppl should think about their trade habits... after almost 10months i still run around without beeing scammed once - but trust me, they tried - and they always left the town cause i followed them into every freaking district to warn others. O_o

mohh · Feb 17, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I hate scammers and I personally ruin their day whenever i run into them. Just the other night someone was trying to sell the formula for white dye so I just posted it for everyone to see.

Others are when people try to sell armor pieces in pre, to the noobs...

Diablo™ · Feb 17, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

No, but what i was saying(which you SHOULD have realised) was that to get rid of scammers you need to get rid of the cause.

Please direct this "cause" in your post. The Orange dunce cap? The rival gang? or the irrelevant example? Your post had 3 topics and neither seems to be your "cause" so it must be of a different matter. Perhaps you speak of emotional contempt towards the larger group of guild wars population for having greater wealth? Or is it a prejudice assumption that because a few worthless players resorted to using bots justify the actions of a scam?

And please elaborate without resorting to personal attacks, I have much respect for a reasonable debate, but not one who lacks reason.

Mimi Miyagi · Feb 17, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Although many have tried to scam me (probably about 20-30% of all of my trades), no one has successfully done so. If you value your hard earned items and cash, then you'll take the time to make sure you're getting what you are supposed to be before hitting "accept". Careless people will be taken advantage of.

And when a scammer tries to rip me off, I make sure everyone in the district I'm in knows it.

Scammers deserve to have their accounts permanently banned. The scammed deserve to lose their money. Win win situation. ANet makes money by selling the scammers an account then banning it, reducing bandwidth, and the scammed learn (hopefully) a valuable lesson.

FWIW, people selling overpriced items to noobs in Ascalon, buying black dyes in presearing for pennies on the dollar, etc, are not scamming anyone. Both people agree on the trade, ignorance is no excuse. It may be unethical, but caveat emptor.

HDS · Feb 17, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Please direct this "cause" in your post. The Orange dunce cap? The rival gang? or the irrelevant example? Your post had 3 topics and neither seems to be your "cause" so it must be of a different matter. Perhaps you speak of emotional contempt towards the larger group of guild wars population for having greater wealth? Or is it a prejudice assumption that because a few worthless players resorted to using bots justify the actions of a scam?

And please elaborate without resorting to personal attacks, I have much respect for a reasonable debate, but not one who lacks reason.

If you were to READ my other posts you would see a cause, but alas you refuse.

Diablo™ · Feb 17, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

HDS, before this debate should succomb to nothing but foul language and insults. We should identify the topic we are refering to. There is a fine line between a misunderstanding and a malicious deception.

If you're speaking of the person (in the OP example) whom says "45" instead of "45k?" as a reasonable misunderstanding, then of course both parties are without fault.

But if the person used certain tactics in a DELIBERATE attempt to cheat the other out of what is a reasonable and proper trade, it is a textbook scam. As much as the person may try to justify his/her criminal activity by reasons of personal feelings, it is still a uncondonable scam.

Of course it is difficult to identify the other person's motive behind nothing but a screen name and a monitor, all that is left is an assumption, one that is just slightly easier to make in this case because few would imagine the value of the OP's item as only 45 gold.

MSecorsky · Feb 17, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Mislead deceptions, exactly but if you are the moron who is INCAPABLE of reading, not the scammers problem.

Imagine this: Guy gives you check for $1,000,000 instead of $10,000, for a cra or whatever, because he cannot read. You thank him and take your money. Is it your fault or his that he is an incapable moron?

It's your fault for knowingly taking what you were not entitiled or agreed upon. Legally, you are guilty of stealing, especially if it's proven that the other guy was incapable and you took advantage of that condition.

MSecorsky · Feb 17, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

The difference is one is a physical object and another is an object in a game.

If a person gives the same importance to a virtual object as to a real object then i will trade that person 10 HoD swords, 10 HoD axes and 10 Perfect crystallines for his $90,000 car, after all they ar eboth worth alot and both are worth money.

You cannot legally trade those items for the car... you don't own them to trade. They are all the property of aNet.

Diablo™ · Feb 17, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

If one can identify the motive of a suspected scammer, then much of our debate here can come to a close.

As the purpose of a debate is to reach a mutual conclusion through reasoning and comparisons, not insults and attacks.

If that is not what we're heading for, then I fail to see the purpose of this thread.

Loviatar · Feb 17, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

one little question HDS

a rich famous person has eye surgery and bandages over their eyes.

you sneak past the hospital staff and let them think you are one of the nice nurses taking care of them and ask for an autograph.

instead of an autograph book they sign a check for 100,000 and you go out and cash it before anybody knows what happened.

did you commit theft ?

or are you simply a successful scammer and the moron deserved it for not checking?

EternalTempest · Feb 17, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

If you report scammers to anet (w/ screenshots) they will not likely do anything to recoup losses but it might get there account banned for a time or kicked if they have too many complaints log.

Blue Steel · Feb 17, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Scammers are and always will be the dregs of society. They perpetrate FRAUD upon the unsuspecting, and in the process of committing FRAUD, they force higher transaction costs on the honest. People can protect themselves, but if lying, deceitful, ignorant, and idiotic SCAMMERS did not exploit everyone they could, the game would be more fun and easier to play for everyone.

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR DISHONESTY HERE. The intelligent, kind, and noble will never embrace those who lie and cheat and commit fraud, especially as they try to rationalize it.

Nevin · Feb 17, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Scamming is something I expect from people who are poor or have not established themselves in the game, I was wrong.. Just recently I did a run for a male warrior in Fissure of Woe armor (Full set) He had Victo Axe and a Bulwrak, After I did the mission he immediately left and then started spamming that I scammed him?.. Even though I completed it.

Now just to prove how much of a fool this man (If he even was older then 18) He was saying I failed the Thirsty River mission, but spamming it in AUGERY ROCK? If we failed he would've been zoned back to Thirsty River. (What a moron)

I do respect the few good people in GW though, I've had people tip me for exceptional run times, and fill a failed payement due to a scammer.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

Scammers are and always will be the dregs of society. They perpetrate FRAUD upon the unsuspecting, and in the process of committing FRAUD, they force higher transaction costs on the honest. People can protect themselves, but if lying, deceitful, ignorant, and idiotic SCAMMERS did not exploit everyone they could, the game would be more fun and easier to play for everyone.

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR DISHONESTY HERE. The intelligent, kind, and noble will never embrace those who lie and cheat and commit fraud, especially as they try to rationalize it.

Absolutely agreed. Scamming is a deliberate act of evil if the person is stealing for profit as opposed to survival. Even if that person doesn't believe in "karma," fate has a strange way of eventually repaying everyone whatever they deserve (yes, I'm talking both real life and GW).

As someone else posted earlier, how a person conducts themself in GW is a reflection of who they are in real life. So, are all scammers evil? My answer: absolutely, but that doesn't mean they can't abandon their sick and twisted ways. Everyone has a choice, so I hope they make the best they can of their present lives, in game or out.

HDS · Feb 17, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

one little question HDS

a rich famous person has eye surgery and bandages over their eyes.

you sneak past the hospital staff and let them think you are one of the nice nurses taking care of them and ask for an autograph.

instead of an autograph book they sign a check for 100,000 and you go out and cash it before anybody knows what happened.

did you commit theft ?

or are you simply a successful scammer and the moron deserved it for not checking?

Big big difference.

One is INCAPABLE of seeing, the other (most victims) are too lazy to observe.

HDS · Feb 17, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

Scammers are and always will be the dregs of society. They perpetrate FRAUD upon the unsuspecting, and in the process of committing FRAUD, they force higher transaction costs on the honest. People can protect themselves, but if lying, deceitful, ignorant, and idiotic SCAMMERS did not exploit everyone they could, the game would be more fun and easier to play for everyone.

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR DISHONESTY HERE. The intelligent, kind, and noble will never embrace those who lie and cheat and commit fraud, especially as they try to rationalize it.

?!?!?! Excuse me?

Are you insinuating that i am a scammer? THAT, is really insulting.
That is completley uncalled for LBS, i really wouldnt have expect something liek that from you, notice the thread title "YOUR OPINION"? It's called freedom of thought, i shall think whatever i wish to think, never have i said that scamming is morally just, however i do believe that there is a cause for the scamming, possibly an envy of 'rich' people. Possibyl stupidity, i could go on, there are many possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Absolutely agreed. Scamming is a deliberate act of evil if the person is stealing for profit as opposed to survival. Even if that person doesn't believe in "karma," fate has a strange way of eventually repaying everyone whatever they deserve (yes, I'm talking both real life and GW).

As someone else posted earlier, how a person conducts themself in GW is a reflection of who they are in real life. So, are all scammers evil? My answer: absolutely, but that doesn't mean they can't abandon their sick and twisted ways. Everyone has a choice, so I hope they make the best they can of their present lives, in game or out.

You missed something, LBS mentioned nothing of steling for survival, in his/her opinnion that is the same thing. EVEN IF the scammer may be doing that BECAUSE a few morons at the top of the GW money world decided that a sword should be worth 450K and not 45K... etc...

HDS · Feb 17, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

HDS, before this debate should succomb to nothing but foul language and insults. We should identify the topic we are refering to. There is a fine line between a misunderstanding and a malicious deception.

If you're speaking of the person (in the OP example) whom says "45" instead of "45k?" as a reasonable misunderstanding, then of course both parties are without fault.

But if the person used certain tactics in a DELIBERATE attempt to cheat the other out of what is a reasonable and proper trade, it is a textbook scam. As much as the person may try to justify his/her criminal activity by reasons of personal feelings, it is still a uncondonable scam.

Of course it is difficult to identify the other person's motive behind nothing but a screen name and a monitor, all that is left is an assumption, one that is just slightly easier to make in this case because few would imagine the value of the OP's item as only 45 gold.

For some reason i cant send you pms... oh well, open letter i suppose:

Look, i'm not insulting your inteligence, or at least i am not trying to, all i am saying is, instead of complaining about how there are scammers people shoudl look at the root of the problem.

It's liek with gangs: "Gangs are full of morons who should be shot"

etc...

However none of thsoe people actually look as to why people join gangs, same goes for scammers, ban them ban them ban them, but everybody shuld take a moment and try to look at what is causing the scammers to exist. And combat that instead of the scammers.

To providee a fair analogy: It's like seeing a fire and poining the extinguisher at the top of the flames, nothign happens. You need to find the source.

+ As i said, i really find most of the "scams" as the 'victims' fault, lack of attention.

Without said lack of atention most scams wouldnt happen.

And in response to your above post: Yes, that is a textbook example of a scam if he knew that 45,000 gold was meant and not 45 gold, however, how will you manage to prove this if the other/seller did not specify 45 plat or 45,000 gold?

FunkyCrime · Feb 17, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Scamming is wrong. No arguement

Ive been victim of attempted scams but never have fallen to them - if people just checked what they were trading there would be far less scams.
How long does it take to hover the mouse over the picture to see the text - 5seconds? No-one is in that much of a hurry not to do that.

lg5000 · Feb 17, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

btw, I don't endorse scamming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

you are wrong on both counts

as to it not being theft check the penal code to see if it is

in this case an agreement is made on a sale of an item (or service) for a specified price.

it is exactly the same as if in real life you sold a gold plated item stating it was solid gold and getting the solid gold price.

they willingly put up the money to buy the specified item

if they didnt put up the money how could they get it?

if the buyer has proof the scammer goes to jail or other sentence given by the judge

what is stolen is possibly 100+ hours of work or longer that they used up getting that gold.

scammers are thieves.

no more no less

thieves

Ok, I'm not in the US, so God only knows what your laws say about it. Yes, Scamming is Fraud, Fraud is illegal. It is however, no Theft.

Going back to the African email which offers lots of money.. how many people do you think have had money 'stolen' from them? Money they freely pay these scammers btw. And how many do you think got their money back?

If it was theft, one arrest would get them their money back. Fraud... one arrest and they still don't see the money back. Why? They handed it over willingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Mislead deceptions, exactly but if you are the moron who is INCAPABLE of reading, not the scammers problem.

Imagine this: Guy gives you check for $1,000,000 instead of $10,000, for a cra or whatever, because he cannot read. You thank him and take your money. Is it your fault or his that he is an incapable moron?

Well.. yes it is. He could have had a friend or lawyer with him to double check the information.. You're gonna tell me he didn't realise he can't read until then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR DISHONESTY HERE. The intelligent, kind, and noble will never embrace those who lie and cheat and commit fraud, especially as they try to rationalize it.

Ohh.. big words in caps.. try working with people who fall for real life scams and you'll see that while you think maybe you should feel sorry for them for loosing all their money, you can't help but wonder what sort of person would spend the type of money lost in scams before contacting the authorities about it.

It's like coming post searing and still taking someones offer and selling them black dye for 50g! (bad example). Hence, people who fall for the scams actually deserve it.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

Scammers are and always will be the dregs of society. They perpetrate FRAUD upon the unsuspecting, and in the process of committing FRAUD, they force higher transaction costs on the honest. People can protect themselves, but if lying, deceitful, ignorant, and idiotic SCAMMERS did not exploit everyone they could, the game would be more fun and easier to play for everyone.

DO NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY YOUR DISHONESTY HERE. The intelligent, kind, and noble will never embrace those who lie and cheat and commit fraud, especially as they try to rationalize it.

?!?!?! Excuse me?

Are you insinuating that i am a scammer? THAT, is really insulting.
That is completley uncalled for LBS, i really wouldnt have expect something liek that from you, notice the thread title "YOUR OPINION"? It's called freedom of thought, i shall think whatever i wish to think, never have i said that scamming is morally just, however i do believe that there is a cause for the scamming, possibly an envy of 'rich' people. Possibyl stupidity, i could go on, there are many possibilities.

In case you didn't notice, LBS mentioned names -- no fingers pointed. Is there any particular reason why you feel the post was directed at you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

You missed something, LBS mentioned nothing of steling for survival, in his/her opinnion that is the same thing. EVEN IF the scammer may be doing that BECAUSE a few morons at the top of the GW money world decided that a sword should be worth 450K and not 45K... etc...

That's because those were my words, not LBS's. Anyone can justify stealing food if it is a matter of survival. However, stealing for only self gain and nothing else is both evil and selfish... period.